Cromwell ECU FLASH

The o2 Sensor kan only read Stochiometric 14.6 AFR and is used as a switch at that point between rich and lean. :/ a wideband can measure the AFR specifically

I send a PM as well but

Are you sure about the "switch" behaviour of our Lambda sensors?

German Wikipedia Lambdasonde

Our Lambda sensor does have a heating, normal "Sprungsonden" (missing the english word) do not have that. In the ECU we have a definition of AFR of 14.6 (original) which can be edited/changed. Why is that if the sensor allway jumps in Resitance value at AFR regardless of the entered value or filled in Benzin?

Benzin (E0) = AFR 14.7:1
Benzin (E10) = AFR 14.1:1
Ethanol (E100) = AFR 9:1

In all three cases the ""Sprungsonde" jumps at the right AFR and it is impossible for the ECU to distinguish where exactly the AFR is. The Nerstsonde delivers a proper resistance value which then can be used by the ECU ... hence the possibility to change the value.

Seeing th eECU possibilities and the fact of the "Lambda heating" I tend to believe that our Sensors are the "Wideband" sensors ...

But I admit, I am a little confused ...
 
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Hey

Die meisten Fahrzeuge verwenden einen Sauerstoffsensor. (o2 sensor/narrowband)
Diese sind heute mit Heizung, daher 4 kabeln. (2x heating 1x ground 1x signal)
Die alten haben nu 2 kabeln, signal & ground.
Wideband sensor haben 6 kabeln.

Der Zweck dieser Sonde ist es, eine reine Verbrennung zu gewährleisten, die Lambda 1 entspricht.
Lambda hat möglicherweise unterschiedliche AFs, die auf unterschiedlichem Kraftstoff basieren, aber die Lambda -Definition ist dieselbe, egal welcher Kraftstoff verwendet wird. Nämlich die Definition der Stochiometrie

Was Sie in der ECU ändern können, ist zu definieren, was AFR der Stochiometrie basierend auf Kraftstoff entspricht (in diesem Fall 14.7 und das Filtersignal von 450 mV für die Beziehung zwischen Fett und Lean.

Um herauszufinden, wo sich Stochio befindet, bewegt sich das ECU ständig zwischen fetten und schlanken Mischbedingungen, bis es dem angegebenen Wert am nächsten kommt.

Daher kann es Ihnen nicht sagen, wie fett afr oder lehnt sich für diesen Fall an. Es kann nur über die Beziehung und nicht über die Menge erraten.

Da der Sensor nicht AFR liest, fummelt der Ecuen in den Werten zwischen fett und schlank, bis er in der Nähe von Lambda liegt. Und dann bleibt es so lange, wie es sich im geschlossenen Schleifenmodus befindet.

Daher wird jeder "Kraftstoffkommandant" das Slauen von Geld sein. Denn das ECU reguliert sich im Laufe der Zeit nach Stochio zurück.

Es gibt jedoch einige Bedingungen, dann bricht der geschlossene Schleifenmodus, bei dem die ECU -Schleife schaltet.
Sie werden das ECU nicht mehr verwenden, um den Sauerstoffsensor zu verwenden, sondern auf der Grundlage spezifischer Informationen, wie sie im ECU registriert sind.

Die Lambda-Sonde bewegt sich zwischen 0-1 Volt, während Breitband 0-5 Volt beträgt.
Das Signal ist auch anders und Sie können das wideband nicht direkt mit dem Ecuen anschließen. Es ist doch möglish sollten eine Messgerät mit einem analogen narrowband simulator haben, den Sie dann anschließen.

Es ist aber doch möglich den ecu zu optimieren. Gerne sende mir einen bin.fil und 4 guten datalog.
 
Hey

Die meisten Fahrzeuge verwenden einen Sauerstoffsensor. (o2 sensor/narrowband)
Diese sind heute mit Heizung, daher 4 kabeln. (2x heating 1x ground 1x signal)
Die alten haben nu 2 kabeln, signal & ground.
Wideband sensor haben 6 kabeln.

Der Zweck dieser Sonde ist es, eine reine Verbrennung zu gewährleisten, die Lambda 1 entspricht. ...


Das stimmt alles für den Sprungsensor:



1685281159822.png

Dieser Sensor kann eigentlich nur feststellen ob man FETT oder MAGER ist.

Meine Frage war eine andere.

Wenn ein solcher Sensor verbaut ist, wie ist es der ECU möglich das Gemisch beim Beschleunigen auf solche Werte (Weit jenseits von Lambda!) zu justieren?

1685280675599.png

AFR bei "Power Enrich" - also beim Beschleunigen. Um einen AFR von 12.625 zu mischen (Maximum Power) oder 10.0 (zur Kühlung) braucht die ECU genauere Informationen als "Fett" oder "Mager"!
Das ist nur ein Beispiel von wirklich vielen im gesamten Setting in denen ein anderer AFR als 14.7 eingestellt wird.

An diesem Setting habe ich ausgiebig rumgespielt. Das ist nicht nur ein "Dummy" man merkt den Unterschied. Es tut sich also was und irgendwie stellt die ECU das auch ein"


Und verstehe mich nicht falsch, Breitbandsonden haben meistens 6 Pins aber irgendwie MUSS unsere ECU eine genauere AFR Information bekommen! Ich vermute das die Spannungskurve* LINKS der Sprungspannung ausgewertet wird. Mit einem etwas "minderwertigerem" Sensor könnte die Kurve etwas steiler und damit genauer verlaufen ... (Ist nur das, was man einen "educated guess" nennt.

*Spannung über einen Spannungsteiler. Es ist natürlich am Sensor eine Wiederstandskurve.

Es ist aber doch möglich den ecu zu optimieren. Gerne sende mir einen bin.fil und 4 guten datalog.

Ich habe den Eindruck das der Deutsche Text von Google Translate erstellt wird. Es ist manchmal besser den Text in Englisch zu übersetzen oder es im Englischen Original zu lassen. Die Autoübersetzung in Deutsch ist manchmal recht "schwierig" (Wenngleich besser als nichts!)

Ansonsten: Verkaufst du die Optimierungen?
 
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Danke fur die antwort, und die umformulierung deiner frage.

est ist rigtig, das ich google translate als stützte brauche, um mit meiner umverden kommunizieren zu können. Die kurze geschichte ist, dass ich als belgischer statsbürger in Deutschland geboren bin, ging in die französichen schule, umgezogen nach Dänemark und da meine sprache neu lehrnen mussen (Dänisch) und 16 jahre später bin ich nach Norwegen umgezogen. Mein English ist bestimt noch schlechter. (All dies, wurde ohne tranlate geshrieben. :)

But okay, can try the english.

I do understand your couriosity, and i can tell you what i figured out the past 3 years street tuning my bike. (yingang yg125-23a).

The bikes VE map, is whats all about. And the map is a combination between your question, and the fact of the narrowband usage.

This is also why, most maps look like shit and are not understandable before either a LOT of datalogging, og just by getting a Wideband with a gauge and datalogging (surely much faster)

When your are in closed loop, the ECu will take the startpoint by the VE table, and correct into stochio when driving around. So the VE table will be able to work under most conditions worldwide, because it will be compensated by the oxygen sensor.

The Ecu does not know more, then what is programmed in advance.

So when you are going into power enrichment mode, it brakes out of the Closed loop, and is then ONLY using the VE table, and the enrichment calculatet by the value given in the ECU.

Sometimes there are different enrichments going on at the same time, Ariflow multiplier, Power enrichment, Extendet power enrichment, CAT Factor, barometric/altitude compensation and so on. All of them play together.

So the VE is then suddenly a hyphotese of the given efficiency by the "demanded" AFR that really is not specified, but calculated by those factors.

Yes you can feel something, and yes, you are correct that some changes DO affect the riding experience. But because that de narrowband cannot figuere out the AFR, the ECU need to take use of the algoritme for calculation.

Just for side information, the Power enrichment is misunderstood. It really is, a type of safety enrichment that ensures that the engine does not get damaged under given performance. it does not make power, au contraire.

Under acceleration, the ECU continues in the closedloop, but does take use of acc.enrichment and AE load gain for calculating the given condition and factor in the acceleration.

I do understand, that the couriosity wants some meaning, and all i can tell, the ECU does know nothing else, then what is been told and programmed. All the rest, are calculations.

Unless you have a wideband sensor with the gauge, you will not know, what the "makers" have done, and because off the Closed Loop under ALMOST all given situations, the makes do care less. The ecu adjust itself under closed loop, and the only thing that needs to be right, is that the engine gets rich enough under load as security factor.

look a my original shitty VE:
1685291509285.png

And now:

1685291545386.png

It is a world of difference in the riding experience, and yes it is possible to street tune. All you need, is analysing the data, over and over and over, until you get the results, and then, you continue.

So, what i believe is, that your whole map of your bike.... probably is as shitty as mine was ! :p

And surely, your injector is to short.

If you want, i would like this project and in return you can get a taste of what could be possible. The cost is your time, and driving around until we get a base map to work on.
 
I do understand your couriosity, and i can tell you what i figured out the past 3 years street tuning my bike. (yingang yg125-23a).

The bikes VE map, is whats all about. And the map is a combination between your question, and the fact of the narrowband usage.

What exactly is the "VE" map?
When your are in closed loop, the ECu will take the startpoint by the VE table, and correct into stochio when driving around. So the VE table will be able to work under most conditions worldwide, because it will be compensated by the oxygen sensor.
Stochiometric is not the problem in theorie. That is an easy closed loop (hence the name) . But why is it possible to "adjust" the closed loop stochiometric setting.

This is the basic definition of stochiometric in my settings:
1685297580419.png

By default it is 14.6, I changed it to 14.7. (Which is wrong according to what I fill the tank with)
At this point the ECU will check the Sensor and assume at the jump point of the sensor to be 14.7. From there everything else is calculated !?!?!?


BTW: what is "VE" for you?

The Ecu does not know more, then what is programmed in advance.

So when you are going into power enrichment mode, it brakes out of the Closed loop, and is then ONLY using the VE table, and the enrichment calculatet by the value given in the ECU.

Assuming you are right, and I tend to do so, this is simply terrible from an engineering point of view!
Whatever quality of gas I will fill in the tank my bike is simply ignorant of it ...
If pure Benzin is 14.7 and E10 is 14.1 (10% Ethanol at 9:1, linarity assumed) the "assumed" 12.6 (by the ECU) would be in reality 13.2. I hate that idea!


My next bike will be something technicaly more sophisticated ... but then I can not tinker with it. Whatever I do is wrong 😢

look a my original shitty VE:
Anhang anzeigen 25472

And now:

Anhang anzeigen 25473

So, what i believe is, that your whole map of your bike.... probably is as shitty as mine was ! :p

(Not a fan of the 3D charts. They look nice but give less meaningfull information)
Again, what exactly is VE?

I had much more success with the ingnition angle:

Original:
1685297860831.png

Modification (currently):

1685297911405.png

This gives much more torgue in the mid range, which is much needed uphill!
And surely, your injector is to short.

Could you be more specific? Are you talking about injection time?
(No jokes about a short injector please ;) )

If you want, i would like this project and in return you can get a taste of what could be possible. The cost is your time, and driving around until we get a base map to work on.
Actually my project is already on the limit of what is possible as my clutch starts to slip. I had to dial back my settings to catch the clutch again. I know that the engine could do more but I can not get that power on the weel!
 
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What exactly is the "VE" map?
Ve map is the volumetric efficiency map of your engine wich works like an airpump. Airflow > Ve Main 1. it shows the efficiency of the engine through RPM and load and is used as base for other calculations inside the ecu. An a 3 D view give a more holistic view of the performance curve of the engine. in 2 D it would look like a torque curve.
But why is it possible to "adjust" the closed loop stochiometric setting.
Since the AFR is different between fuels, you need to tell it at what point lambda is for the specific fuel since lambda is defined as AFR in the ECU. If you drive with E10 you should adjust it to it, or else you risk driving in lean condition, wich gives more heat, wear , and higher risk for knock, especially when you have modified the ignition angel.
I had much more success with the ingnition angle:
It is correct that ignition angel is the key for producing power, but also more risky if there is no knock detector, and the VE table is not right.
How do you know, that the changes do not affect the vitality of the engine under given RPM and loads? Unlike the VE, you can not calculate when knock occurs, but you can measure when you are driving lean.

Could you be more specific? Are you talking about injection time?
No. I mean the injector duty cycle, wich is the size/amount of fuel at given pressure that can be injected without going static (open all the time) it should be at 85% max. a OBD reader can calculate the duty cycle/injector load.
My bike was originaly a 56 gram or about 78cc injector, wich only can perform 9,9HP with 98 octane on a 125cc for 100% duty cycle. I went static at 85% throttle. So there where no more fuel to give. The injector should be approx 20% bigger than the cc of the bike on 2 ventil, and 25% on 4 ventil.

Actually my project is already on the limit of what is possible as my clutch starts to slip.
when are you intending to change the clutch plates?

On the other side, dataprocessing takes time, and if you gather enough data for me to process, i could make a base file out of it for when you have changed the plates.
 
Ve map is the volumetric efficiency map of your engine wich works like an airpump. Airflow > Ve Main 1. it shows the efficiency of the engine through RPM and load and is used as base for other calculations inside the ecu. An a 3 D view give a more holistic view of the performance curve of the engine. in 2 D it would look like a torque curve.
OK, got it.
1685348036281.png
or in 3D
1685348077512.png

It doesnt look too bad, but as many maps in the ECU it is a generic one. E.g. it goes up to 12800RPM while the Engine is slowed down at 10000 at other points in the ECU and can not overcome 8500 in real life ...

But as it is impossible to increase the real airflow AND I am already at the power limit of what I can utelise I think this is pretty useless for my case (with one exception, see below)

Since the AFR is different between fuels, you need to tell it at what point lambda is for the specific fuel since lambda is defined as AFR in the ECU.

That is understood - I could adapt to my E10 fuel, but then it would inject more which would increase my consumption (and decrease heat, I know, but heat is no issue in this case)

If you drive with E10 you should adjust it to it, or else you risk driving in lean condition, wich gives more heat, wear , and higher risk for knock, especially when you have modified the ignition angel.

It is correct that ignition angel is the key for producing power, but also more risky if there is no knock detector,

That is more a theoretical thiing. I tried much more agressive ignition angels without problems regarding knock. Additionaly you see in my map that I never exceed the maximum angle given in the original file. I think I am pretty safe regarding knoking!

and the VE table is not right.
How do you know, that the changes do not affect the vitality of the engine under given RPM and loads? Unlike the VE, you can not calculate when knock occurs, but you can measure when you are driving lean.

The main concern regarding knock in my case is that I increased the compression from 8.9 to 9.5. Suzuki runs the same engine (with a different Cylinder head) at 9.2. But honestly, 9.5:1 is still so low, that I cant buy any fuel in Germany that is bad enough to ignite that early by itself!
On top of that I payed a lot of attention in the beginning to see if I hear any knoking - but I never even had the slightest impression of some bad noises.


No. I mean the injector duty cycle, wich is the size/amount of fuel at given pressure that can be injected without going static (open all the time) it should be at 85% max. a OBD reader can calculate the duty cycle/injector load.

There is a ECU setting for the displacement size - which I changed accordingly. I could not measure it but think that the ECU is adjusting the duty cycle to that because I do not get excessive heat (I monitor the oil/engine temperature). Because the engine runs pretty cool I have some doubts that it is running too lean. (AND I have an extra oil cooler here in case I need it, which I dont until now)


when are you intending to change the clutch plates?

I changed the no name plates to "EDC heavy dutty" plates, swapped to stronger springs and replaced the 10W40 to 5W50 (thicker at heat). Without this it would be much worse.
The only possibility I see is to add another plate and shorten the springs a bit - but that seems, right now, to be to much hazle.

On the other side, dataprocessing takes time, and if you gather enough data for me to process, i could make a base file out of it for when you have changed the plates.

Thanks for the offer but I mentioned it already, I dont need more power out of my bike. The only remaining goal is, to make it as efficient as possible without losing the power/tourque level I already have.
The VE map might be helpfull in that task and I want to "find" the best setting by myself :D
 
Thanks for your response. I am enjoying the conversation :)

What i do not understand, is your relation to efficiency
The only remaining goal is, to make it as efficient as possible without losing the power/tourque level I already have.

From my point of view, efficiency is a relation between performance and consumption, do you want more efficiency of the engine, you give what it wants to performe as effective as possible, wich in return gives more power. And power is the reason you changed the ignition angel?
On the other side, if you want to tune your bike for most efficiency, the base should be set at first, before exessive tuning begins?

One essentiel factor is, fuel injector size: you need to secure fuel throughout the RPM and loads, the original is not capable of that, unless the data shows something else. Uselly i smaller injector is placed as a restrictor, if no more fuel can be added, you can not get higher performance in given situations. Like you stating:
the Engine is slowed down at 10000 at other points in the ECU and can not overcome 8500 in real life ...

But also more factors come into considerations, like leaning out, heat accumulation, predetonations. You do not hear knock/predetonation while driving as exemple, and mostly, you do not even feel it. Changes in compression, and stroke/width size does affect detonation value. higher compression needs lower ignition angel generaly.

So what regards knock, i keep in mind, that this is an assumption and i prefere data for validation.

To secure efficiency, you would start looking at fuel accesibility. Afterwards, you would considere the implementation of unrestrictet air flow due improvement by changing the airfilter and/or the exhaust. Those changes should be implementet in the MAP map, wich helps regulating the correct amount of fuel.

Then you need to tune you VE according to its factual efficiency. afterwards you adjust you AFR table. At last, you change ignition values.

while adjusting parameters, will produce better efficiency, and use more fuel, wich will be converted to power on the backweel. Changng in gear/ration would be reasonable.

I could not measure it but think that the ECU is adjusting the duty cycle to that because I do not get excessive heat
Duty cucle is calculated value between injector pulse width and RPM, even when static it can be programmed in the ecu to reduce performance by adding enrichment. like the AFR of 10 addet enrichment airflow by 0.934(fx) wich results on massive enrichment and reducing performance and or cooling as well as reducing ingition angel. When Pe mode acitvated it while augment the enrichment further when entering extended PE mode.

I changed the no name plates to "EDC heavy dutty" plates, swapped to stronger springs and replaced the 10W40 to 5W50 (thicker at heat). Without this it would be much worse.
I like that you changed to EDC, waiting for my brakes from them. i did keep my oil 15w-40 synthetic MA2 and i did add some X1-R with great results.

The VE map might be helpfull in that task and I want to "find" the best setting by myself :D
If you would like it to find it yourself, i do respect that and wishing all good an that. What i can not figure out, is why not take the possibility of the help that i am offering? There is no cost for you or for me, and neither is it bothering for any of us. furthermore, you want to find the most efficiency and i want to calculate it, so this offer is straight forward.

But that wonder asside, for anyone reading this wich could be interessted in a map. Pm me. Like I stated before, a .bin file and some logging is all i need for working on a new projekt.
 
Thanks for your response. I am enjoying the conversation :)
Dito! I alearned a lot
I compared my WE Main Map 1 with a KOVI 300 and there is not that much obvious difference ... which is good!

What i do not understand, is your relation to efficiency


From my point of view, efficiency is a relation between performance and consumption, do you want more efficiency ...

Your point of view is a very theoretical one and if I would be free to do what I want I would like to follow you - but
1. I only have one bike which has to run and
2. My maximum possible power (kW/PS) and Torque (Nm) is limited by the capabilities to bring motor power to the wheel by my clutch.

As I already reached the maximum with very little settings change, which run perfectly fine*, without increasing the fuel consumption, the only thing to possibly optimiese is to lower the fuel consumption.
*Temperature stable, passing official emmision tests (another indicator for a correct combustion)


One essentiel factor is, fuel injector size: you need to secure fuel throughout the RPM and loads, the original is not capable of that, unless the data shows something else. Uselly i smaller injector is placed as a restrictor, if no more fuel can be added, you can not get higher performance in given situations.
Again, you are absolutly right - in theorie! I just can not utilieze a "higher" performance

But also more factors come into considerations, like leaning out,
This would mean it runs to hot - checked and it doesnt
heat accumulation,
At certain points in the cylinder because of combustion. It runs for more then y year or about 5000km. Of course I can not be sure but I think I am fine here too.

Not an issue. I cant prove that as I do not have a knocking sensor but as I know that other similar engines have a much higher compression - and I trust to be able to hear excessive knoking (as I recognized it in the past, years ago, on a car with carburator).

You do not hear knock/predetonation while driving as exemple, and mostly, you do not even feel it.
I havent felt it, thats true, but I could definately hears it.
Again: It runs for about 5000km now and passed all leagal emmision test about 500km ago.

So what regards knock, i keep in mind, that this is an assumption and i prefere data for validation.
Yes, getting real data is always better than just have the "feeling" or an indirect confirmation (which I have both)

I like that you changed to EDC, waiting for my brakes from them. i did keep my oil 15w-40 synthetic MA2 and i did add some X1-R with great results.

I checked what X1-R is and it is basicaly reducing friction of the oil which would be counter prodictive for my clutch "problem" but in your case why not running a 10W30 right away?

If you would like it to find it yourself, i do respect that and wishing all good an that. What i can not figure out, is why not take the possibility of the help that i am offering? There is no cost for you or for me, and neither is it bothering for any of us. furthermore, you want to find the most efficiency and i want to calculate it, so this offer is straight forward.

But that wonder asside, for anyone reading this wich could be interessted in a map. Pm me. Like I stated before, a .bin file and some logging is all i need for working on a new projekt.

If you insist :D

I could send the original and my modified bin-file right away, but what exactly do you mean by "logging". I could produce some log files while on the center stand but during a drive it would be difficult. I need some detailed instructions about what you need. I will see what I can do.

Please send a PM in case we have to find a way to comunicate more directly and in detail!
 
Der Kurs "Chinesisch für fortgeschrittene" endet nun.

Schalten Sie auch in zwei Wochen wieder ein, zu einer weiteren Folge: "wish you were here, wenn du dir die Haare wäscht" unserem beliebten Englischkurs.
 
Offensichtlich etwas Missfallen ob der Englischen Sprache, insbesondere bei meiner dahingeholperten Ausdrucksweise - oder ist es gerade deswegen? Sehr interessant so was im Jahr 2023 noch zu erleben ...
 
Offensichtlich etwas Missfallen ob der Englischen Sprache, insbesondere bei meiner dahingeholperten Ausdrucksweise - oder ist es gerade deswegen? Sehr interessant so was im Jahr 2023 noch zu erleben ...
Nein im Gegenteil. 😶
Das war so beeindruckend dass ich mich dauernd ausklinken musste (wollte).
Allergrößte Hochachtung vor dem Fachwissen und allem dazu.
Wollte nur witzig sein 😶
Sorry ✌️
 
Thanks for your time :)

as other statet,
Schalten Sie auch in zwei Wochen wieder ein, zu einer weiteren Folge:
until then, as respons to your answer, your are right, we do mostly only have 1 bike :) i startet tuning my bike because i used it on the highway and it could reach the 85km/h with those 12 inch weehls. So i had a lot to work with.
i placed bigger injector, went from 26 to 32mm intake manifold, and a 200cc. Gear ration went from 15-37 to 18-32.

3 years since i got the bike and i'm still playing around. the new engine has 8000 km behind.

The reason for x1-R is more than oil capcabilities. It reduces friction very good :
reducing friction has high value to me, since i drive the bike very hard and hot for highway use. The use of other oil wil not give samme results as the additiv. I did traval from Norway to Danmark on the bike last sommer.

For datalogging i use Vgate iCarPro with bluetooth. It works fine with Hud Hacker and datalogging. The baudrate could be higher, (like tactrix), but tactrix does not have bluetooth. Whats nice with Tactrix is the higher baudrate, and more data gives better results.

I will send you a PM with the instruction for what data i would like logged for modifing the map.

Thanks you for your time and assistance on the project.

//Lars
 
Wurde gerne helfen mit den Tuning :)
Brauche den Bin.file und 4 gute und indholdsreiche datalogs.
Ergänzung ()


Du kanst einfach die mt5.3 datalogen und die VEmap in einen mt05.2 überfuhren. ? Du kannst mir ja mal ein paar Logs senden?
Mit dem Bin.file aus der 5.03 kann ich leider nicht dienen. Der lässt sich mit ECU Hacker 4.9 noch nicht auslesen. Habe heute mal ein Paar Logs erstellt. dazu hast Du ne PN.


Gruß

Peter
 
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